VIC Compliance & Engineering

Regulations in each state are based on ADR's but states differ in application and interpretation. (Previous Chopper chat articles have been shifted to this new section). Ask your questions here...
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Aussiehard
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VIC Compliance & Engineering

Post by Aussiehard » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:27 pm

Below is a transcript of an email conversation between me and an approved Engineering Inspector.

I can't follow what he is saying he seems to be contradicting himself. Would I be doing an ICV or a separate test for a modified vehicle? and which is more likely to be easier and cheaper?

Any thoughts??? This is in VIC.






:D I am looking to import a change over frame for an 1977 Yamaha XS650 from an american frame supplier as either a full frame or rear weld on section to original frame.
Basically I want to make the bike a rigid frame and add a 180 rear tyre (nothing extreme). A sprung solo seat will also be fitted. A change over of tank, wider rear render, and custom shaped (curved) exhaust pipes instead of stock straight ones.

All work will be done by industry professionals.

Can you please give me an idea how much cost and what is involved to legally get this on the road in Victoria. Or can you recommend the services of another engineering signatory for ICVs in Melbourne.



The set up I am looking for is as follows:

37 Deg Front end Rake
4" Ground clearance
+2" Stretch in Rear
Base of frame to sit parallel with ground


21" Front Wheel & 18"x5.5" Rear Wheel both stock Harley wheels that have ¾ axle hubs and are interchangeable.

Please note it won't have a sidemount numberplate as depicted and will have indicators etc.






:twisted: There are significant differences in the requirements relating to Modified and ICV motorcycles, and therefore need to understand the ramifications of this before deciding which way you want to go.

It’s hard to give you an estimate of my fees at this stage, as they will vary depending on the amount of assistance and number of inspections required. Frame modifications need to performed by someone who is qualified and has experience in motorcycle frame construction. Raking a 650 frame would involve a review of the design to ensure the modifications have adequate strength and durability.

I have a minimum retainer of $250 to cover the initial review of a project like yours. In your case, I could outline the specific requirements applicable to modifying your 1977 XS650, to buying an aftermarket frame from US and building up an ICV. An ICV is treated as a new vehicle and needs to comply with current design requirements, whereas the modified only needs to comply with the regulations applicable at 1977.

I would be interested in helping you with your project.



:D Thanks for getting back to me.

I don't follow your last statement, are you saying it is easier to modify an existing frame to make it a rigid as that only needs to meet 1977 regs and is cheaper (less complicated) to process?

Can you please give me an outline of what I would have to do, and what steps/stages I would need your involvements with a rough outine of costs?

1. Initial Consult……$250
2.
3.
4.
5.
I understand that it isn't a fixed process but at this point all I know is it is more than $250 and could require a tatslotto win. Sure if it fails a stage etc it needs to be redone and a new cost.
But I can't budget anything to know if I could even afford to start. I just want it to be clear what is required of me, the bike and your services so there are no misunderstandings

I thank you for your time and assistance in this matter.

Cheers,





:twisted: The initial review would include an outline of the process and requirements. I can’t give you a cost estimate without considering your specific requirements in detail, as each client and job is often quite different.

The VASS process for an ICV is usually more expensive than a modified, and fees for an ICV usually range from $1500 to $2500.

The design requirements are less stringent for a 1977 m/c, however the engineering associated with the modification of the frame may offset this in your case. Noise, lighting & control requirements are more stringent for an ICV, which may impact your plans.

Hope this helps.

RickB56
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Post by RickB56 » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:56 pm

Basically he is saying you aren't going to get much if any information and no cost quote without paying the initial $250.

Bacca

Post by Bacca » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:31 pm

Sounds like you can register it as a ICV or a modified bike.
ICV needs to comply with 2012 compliance.
Modified bike needs to comply with 1977 compliance as that was year of manufacture.

I will be perusing modified bike rego with my Amen if that is the case or maybe club plates.

Can you get a modified bike registered on the 90 day club rego without a engineers ticket? Heard you can with a rod so will be looking into it for when I put the V8 in my Chev.

We don't have the legal's for club plates with Choppers Aus.

Happosai
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Post by Happosai » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:59 pm

Hes not giving you everything for nothing, but hes pointing the way.
The initial review would include an outline of the process and requirements. I can’t give you a cost estimate without considering your specific requirements in detail, as each client and job is often quite different.

The VASS process for an ICV is usually more expensive than a modified, and fees for an ICV usually range from $1500 to $2500.

The design requirements are less stringent for a 1977 m/c, however the engineering associated with the modification of the frame may offset this in your case. Noise, lighting & control requirements are more stringent for an ICV, which may impact your plans.

Hope this helps.
So without talking to you he can't find out what you are trying to achieve, and can't advise you which is the best path - $250.

ICV $1500 to $2500 and a need to comply with current regs.

Modified - depending on how much mods are done it could cost near to an ICV, but if minor could be much less.

He seems to be reasonable and forthright with you, the $250 you spend talking to him could very well save you $1000 at least.

I would suggest going in with a plan, scoure the interweb for pictures of a build very similar to what your thinking of so he can visualise your plan.

Consider it in two parts, the hard tail and the rake, your only talking 3 or 4 degrees (I think) so maybe you could skip that if its too expensive.

Hap
I used to be Vague...................Now I'm not so sure

Aussiehard
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Post by Aussiehard » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:13 am

Happosai wrote:Hes not giving you everything for nothing, but hes pointing the way.
The initial review would include an outline of the process and requirements. I can’t give you a cost estimate without considering your specific requirements in detail, as each client and job is often quite different.

The VASS process for an ICV is usually more expensive than a modified, and fees for an ICV usually range from $1500 to $2500.

The design requirements are less stringent for a 1977 m/c, however the engineering associated with the modification of the frame may offset this in your case. Noise, lighting & control requirements are more stringent for an ICV, which may impact your plans.

Hope this helps.
So without talking to you he can't find out what you are trying to achieve, and can't advise you which is the best path - $250.

ICV $1500 to $2500 and a need to comply with current regs.

Modified - depending on how much mods are done it could cost near to an ICV, but if minor could be much less.

He seems to be reasonable and forthright with you, the $250 you spend talking to him could very well save you $1000 at least.

I would suggest going in with a plan, scoure the interweb for pictures of a build very similar to what your thinking of so he can visualise your plan.

Consider it in two parts, the hard tail and the rake, your only talking 3 or 4 degrees (I think) so maybe you could skip that if its too expensive.

Hap




I'm working on a plan for an XS650 so stock Rake is 27Deg so I'm taking it out to 36-37 deg.

Design pic here:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/attachment.p ... 1299136299

It's nothing radical:
36 Deg Front end Rake
4" Ground clearance
+2" Stretch in Rear
Base of frame to sit parallel with ground


21" Front Wheel & 18"x5.5" Rear Wheel both stock Harley wheels that have ¾ axle hubs and are interchangeable.
Going wide on the back for this bike but still 180-200 same as an R1 stock.

What I don't understand is the frame mods make it the same or as expensive a an ICV?
I could outline the specific requirements applicable to modifying your 1977 XS650, to buying an aftermarket frame from US and building up an ICV. An ICV is treated as a new vehicle and needs to comply with current design requirements, whereas the modified only needs to comply with the regulations applicable at 1977.

So what mods require engineering that don't require an ICV?
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Aussiehard
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Post by Aussiehard » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:39 am

Where can I find details on modified vehicles & ICVs

Doesn't seem to be easily found in the vicroads website.

El Skitzo
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Post by El Skitzo » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:41 pm

I'd be amazed if you can get away with hardtailing a frame nowadays and not have it considered to be an ICV, but fingers crossed for you that you can keep it as a modified vehicle.

I agree that your best bet once you have formalise your plans in your mind, is to pay the $250 and go see the engineer and get the definitive answers you need. Just be prepared for the fact that you may not like the answers you receive...
'65 Triumph Chopper (project)
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Aussiehard
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Post by Aussiehard » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:44 pm

I am looking into doing my wide tyre conversion legally and getting engineering certification. Well that is if Elswick Cycles ever get back to me so I can order my wide hardtail.
Sent them 3 emails saying i was happy with postage and can I place an oder with these spec and no response.

Anyway I digress, Here is a bit of local legislation:


Some modifications will require two checklists – one for the design and another for the modification itself.

This approach allows for the design of a modification to be carried out by someone other than the person/organisation who performs the modification.

For example an engineer may design a left hand drive conversion under code LS1 and have it approved by the Registration Authority. This design may then be subsequently used by a number of modifiers.
Version 2.0 – 1 January 2011 Page 9/21
IntroductionIn these circumstances, the checklist for the modification will demand the inclusion of the design
approval reference number. In the left hand drive conversion example given above, the modifier will be required to include the approval reference number issued under the design code LS1 in the modification checklist LS2.



I was wondering if anyone has fitted an Wide Hard Tail weld on to a Yam XS650 or fitted a Gary Poh offset kit, and had it engineered? I would be interested in referencing that document.

Prof
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Post by Prof » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:41 pm

Seeing as it is a xs 650 call Dave Taylor of xs650 club. He is in southern part of Melbourne and customises xs's. Give him some stubbies for his time as he is a busy guy trying to pay the bills like the rest of us.
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ol_750
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money talks

Post by ol_750 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:33 am

RickB56 wrote:Basically he is saying you aren't going to get much if any information and no cost quote without paying the initial $250.
I think the same .... He is generalising untill he gets some money then he will give specific advise on best methods :shock:
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Brassy
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Post by Brassy » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:11 am

Andrew CA Admin wrote:Seeing as it is a xs 650 call Dave Taylor of xs650 club. He is in southern part of Melbourne and customises xs's. Give him some stubbies for his time as he is a busy guy trying to pay the bills like the rest of us.
+1 on Andrews comments he aint gonna sting you $250 for a bit of knowledge and he has done it before. Unlike mr. ICV who just wants cash I had one of those ICV jokers try to tell me my stock 73 ironhead was and ICV those guys just seem to want your hard earned cash for anything very unscrupulous I am not a fan.

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