Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Regulations in each state are based on ADR's but states differ in application and interpretation. (Previous Chopper chat articles have been shifted to this new section). Ask your questions here...
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Aussiehard
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Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Aussiehard » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:17 am

Some take outs for ICV Bikes:

The procedure for ICV bike certification is the following:

Consult VASS Signatory (Engineer) regarding your ICV project (fill the vehicle details form)
Perform complete ADR’s inspection of the completed bike.
Perform brake test (as per section LG of VSB14)
Perform noise test (limit 94 dB(A))
Upon completion of inspections & testing, an engineer report will be issued and send to VicRoads in order to obtain a VIN.
VIN issued and stamped on bike
Bike registered with engineer report.




The list of ADR’s applicable to 2012 ICV bike (LC Category):

ADR 6/00 Direction Indicators
ADR 14/02 Rear Vision Mirrors
ADR 18/03 Instrumentation
ADR 19/02 Installation of Lighting and Light Signalling Devices on L-Group Vehicles
ADR 33/00 Brake Systems for Motor Cycles and Mopeds
ADR 42/04 General Safety Requirements
ADR 43/04 Vehicle Configuration & Dimensions
ADR 47/00 Retro reflectors
ADR 51/00 Filament Lamps
ADR 53/00 Front and Rear Position Lamps, Stop Lamps, Direction Indicators and Rear Registration Plate Lamps for L-Group Vehicles
ADR 55/00 Headlamps for Motor Cycles
ADR 57/00 Special Requirements for L-Group Vehicles
ADR 61/02 Vehicle Marking
ADR 83/00 External Noise



Definitions:

VSB 14 definition:
‘An ICV is not a production vehicle; rather it is manufactured as a one-off vehicle. If 3 or more ICVs are manufactured by a person in a 12 month period VSB 14 does not apply to these vehicles. These vehicles are subject to the vehicle certification procedures under the Motor Vehicle Standards Act. Vehicles manufactured on a commercial basis are not ICVs.
An ICV may be composed of parts from one or more Production Vehicles. The parts do not
need to be new.
ICVs include certain kit cars and certain production vehicle replicas that have been assembled in accordance with the production limitations mentioned above.
An ICV should comply with the ADRs applicable to its date of manufacture. Each Registration Authority will determine the date of manufacture of an ICV. It is important that prospective builders discuss this issue with the appropriate jurisdiction before commencing a project.’

VicRoads definition:
‘An ICV means a vehicle based on a floor pan or chassis which is neither taken from, nor an original replacement part for, a Recognised Production Vehicle. An ICV is considered to be a new vehicle even if some of the components used in its construction may have been derived from Recognised Production Vehicles’
‘In Victoria, one ICV per individual may be approved per calendar year. A turn key motor vehicle cannot be treated as an ICV’
Date of Manufacture:
‘The construction of an ICV is often a long term project. In Victoria, an ICV’s date of manufacture (Month/Year) may be dated back to the date construction actually commenced up to a maximum of 3 years before the date of issue of the VASS certificate provided by the VASS Signatory retains documentary evidence of the date construction commenced’.\

Aussiehard
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Re: Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Aussiehard » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:20 am

Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14)

Vehicle Regulation Related Links
Certified Road-Friendly Suspensions
Vehicle Safety
Vehicle Standards Bulletins
Road Safety
National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP)

The National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (VSB 14) has been prepared by members of the Australian Motor Vehicle Certification Board Working Party in consultation with industry, user groups, government agencies and individuals with an interest in modifying light vehicles and/or building individually constructed light vehicles (ICVs).

VSB 14 is a "live" document and will continue to be revised and updated as required.

The documents listed below form Version 2 of VSB 14 and are now available for free download in PDF format.

VSB 14 essentially provides the technical requirements that need to be met when modifying or constructing a vehicle. It does not cover the administrative requirements of each State and Territory.

Administrative requirements include, but are not limited to:

Registration processes;
Fees for processes such as registration, issue of temporary permits, vehicle inspections; applications for approval to modify, applications for exemptions etc.;
Determination of the date of manufacture for Individually Constructed Vehicles;
Processes for submitting applications; and
Administration and management of modification schemes including the administration of signatories.
The Preface and Introduction to VSB 14 provide the necessary background information to assist users in understanding how VSB 14 is administered by the Registration Authorities across Australia. Understanding and following these requirements reduces the likelihood of having a vehicle rejected by a Registration Authority.

Prospective constructors or modifiers should contact the Registration Authority in the jurisdiction in which a vehicle is to be registered or modified, to determine the most up to date information about the administrative arrangements that may be in force.

Where a jurisdiction is unable to nationally recognise an element of VSB 14, the individual difference/s are highlighted within VSB 14. In these instances, users should contact the responsible Registration Authority for further advice.

VSB 14 Documents

NCOP1 Preface V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 83 KB]
NCOP2 Introduction V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 142 KB]
NCOP3 Section LA Engine V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 218 KB]
NCOP4 Section LB Transmission V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 131 KB]
NCOP5 Section LG Brakes V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 180 KB]
NCOP6 Section LH Body Modifications V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 993 KB]
NCOP7 Section LK Seating and Occupant Protection V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 1729 KB]
NCOP8 Section LL Motorcycles V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 281 KB]
NCOP9 Section LM Fuel Systems V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 243 KB]
NCOP10 Section LO ADRS ICVs V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 814 KB]
NCOP10A LO1-3 ICV Checklist V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 144 KB]
NCOP10B LO1-4 ICV Checklist V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 122 KB]
NCOP10C LO7 ICV Motorcycle Checklist V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 193 KB]
NCOP10D LO1-2 Second Edition ADRs Checklist V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 127 KB]
NCOP11 Section LS Suspension and Steering V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 1319 KB]
NCOP12 Section LT Test Procedures V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 564 KB]
NCOP13 Section LV Alternative Power Units V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 90 KB]
NCOP14 Guidelines Electric Drive V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 307 KB]
NCOP15 Trike Guidelines V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 781 KB]
NCOP15A LEM Trike Checklist V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 139 KB]
NCOP15B LEP Trike Checklist V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 146 KB]
NCOP16 Section LZ Appendices V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 437 KB]
NCOPC1 Cover Page VSB14 V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 357 KB]
NCOPC2 Cover Page Guidelines Electric Drive V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 972 KB]
NCOPC3 Cover Page Trike Guidelines V2 01Jan2011 [PDF: 386 KB]
Queries regarding VSB 14 should be directed to your local Registration Authority.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... _ncop.aspx

Aussiehard
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Re: Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Aussiehard » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:00 am

Note these are really mostly written and focussed on cars etc and are attempted to be interpreted and applied to bikes.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... an2011.pdf
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... an2011.pdf
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... 011_v2.pdf
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... 1%20v3.pdf
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... 011_v2.pdf



1.1 BASIC MODIFICATIONS NOT REQUIRING CERTIFICATION
The following are Basic Modifications that may be performed without certification provided they
are carried out in compliance with the requirements detailed in sub-section 2 General
Requirements:
Fitting a manufacturer’s optional component such as an engine, transmission, exhaust
system or fuel tank for the particular make/model of the vehicle in question. (Note that
replacing parts or components of a motor cycle with the manufacturer’s parts or
equivalent components does not fall into the category of modifications and as a
consequence no approvals are necessary for repair work);
Conversion of a two-seat motor cycle to a single seater; and
Conversion of a modified motor cycle to original seating configuration.
Note: The underlying design installation and fabrication requirements for all of the above
modifications are contained in sub-section 2 General Requirements.



2.1 DESIGN
2.1.1 Dimensional Requirements - Motor Cycles Without a Sidecar
The maximum width including the load and equipment must not exceed 1 metre.
The load or equipment must not project more than 150mm beyond the extreme outer portion of
the motor cycle on either side.
The maximum longitudinal projection beyond the outer extremity of the tyres of any part of the
motor cycle and loading or equipment thereon must not exceed 150mm in the case of the front
tyre and 300mm in the case of the rear tyre.
If the motor cycle is fitted with a sissy bar it must not have any sharp points or edges or be of a
design that interferes with the safe operation of the motor cycle.

2.1.2 Ground Clearance
When laden, the ground clearance must not be less than 100mm, measured from a horizontal
road surface to any point on the underside of the motor cycle or sidecar excluding tyres wheels
and hubs.

2.1.6 Stand
Any stand fitted to a motor cycle must be maintained in an efficient and safe condition and must
be equipped with a spring or other device capable of holding it securely in the up position at all
times when the stand is not in use.
For all LA and LC group motor cycles manufactured after 1 July 1998, a stand must be fitted
that is capable of holding the motor cycle in a substantially upright position. The stand may be
of the side or centre type and must be equipped with a spring or other device capable of
securely holding it clear of the road at all times when the stand is not in use. A side stand must
be designed so that it does not remain in the down position when the vehicle is moving or about
to move.


2.1.7 Foot Rests or Foot Pegs
Every motor cycle must be fitted with adequate foot rests or foot pegs for the rider and, in the
case where a pillion seating position is provided, foot rests for the pillion passenger.
2.1.8 Rear Vision Mirrors
A motor cycle and motor tricycle built before July 1975 must have at least one mirror on the
right hand side.
A motor cycle or motor tricycle with one front wheel, built after July 1975, must be equipped
with two rear vision mirrors symmetrically placed relative to the centre of the handlebars.
The rear vision mirror or mirrors must be fitted so as to allow the rider to clearly see, by
reflection, the road behind the vehicle and any following or overtaking vehicles. For circular
mirrors the reflective surface area must have a minimum diameter of 94mm and for non-circular
mirrors the reflective surface must be not less than 78mm in diameter and at least 120mm by
200mm.
If a mirror has a convex surface it must have a radius of curvature not less than 1200mm.
Motor cycles and motor tricycles may be fitted with additional mirrors that are flat or convex or a
combination of these surfaces.
2.1.9 Mudguards
Mudguards must be fitted to all wheels, including sidecar wheels (refer to Figure LL1 for details
of mudguard construction and location). Each mudguard must be at least as wide, over its entire length, as its respective wheel and tyre.

A front wheel mudguard must cover the rearward section of the wheel through the area
between two lines, one vertical and the other horizontal, both drawn through the centre of the
wheel. If suitable protection is afforded by the frame or construction of the motor cycle, the
front mudguard need only cover the area that is unprotected.
A rear wheel or sidecar wheel mudguard must extend at least from a point vertically above the
front of the tyre to a point vertically above the rear of the tyre.


2.1.10 Foot and Hand Controls
The controls for motor cycles are standardised, therefore the position and operation of foot and
hand controls must be kept, as far as practicable, to the manufacturer’s original specification.
For example, if the rider’s footrests are moved rearwards (that is, converted to rear seats) the
gear lever must not be reversed or inverted. For safety reasons, the only acceptable method
for this conversion is to fit a linkage, which keeps the gear change pattern the same as the
original. Riders should always be able to operate the brake pedal without lifting their foot from
the footrest.
2.1.11 Drive Guards (Refer to Figure LL2)
If the motor cycle is chain or belt driven and the construction of the frame is not sufficient to
protect the rider and/or the pillion passenger from the driving sprocket and the upper run of the
chain or belt, the motor cycle must be fitted with a guard. The guard must extend at least
300mm rearward of the rearmost footrest or to the vertical centre of the rear sprocket,
whichever is the lesser.
Primary drives must also be similarly protected.


2.1.12 Frame or Suspension Modifications
Motor cycle design is a complex task. Modifications made to a motor cycle’s frame or
suspension, can adversely affect the structural integrity of the frame, steering head, front forks
and suspension increasing the risk of component failure. Similarly, braking and wheel loading
may be adversely affected.
Motor cycles with custom frames, extended forks or structural modifications require an
engineering report.
When forks are extended, without modifications to the frame, care must be taken to ensure the
vehicle continues to comply with ADR57 with respect to special requirements for L-group
vehicles. The horizontal distance between the mid-point of the steering yoke bearings and a
point vertically above the centre of the front wheel must not exceed 550mm.
A motor cycle with a specially designed and constructed frame will be considered to be an
Individually Constructed Vehicle.
Note: Section LO provides information on the construction of ICVs for:
 motor cycles ADR category LA, LB, LC and LD; and
 guidelines together with checklists for LEM1 and LEP1, ADR Category Tricycles.


NOT MENTIONED HERE BUT I WAS TOLD PRE 1976 THERE IS A DIFFERENT REQUIREMENT FOR HANDLE BARS
2.1.13 Handlebars
The handlebar must have the same shape and be of the same length on either side of the front
wheel and steering head assembly.
Handlebar dimensions have to be limited to ensure that the rider has adequate control over the
motor cycle at all times.
Motor cycles manufactured before 1 July 1988 (Figure LL5):
The distance between the extreme ends of the handlebar (V) must not be less than 550mm.
The highest point on the handlebar must not be more than 380mm (W) above the top of the
steering yoke.
Where the highest point of the handlebar is more than 205mm vertically above the top of the
steering yoke (W), the distance between the extreme ends of the handle bar (V) must not be
less than 660mm.



Dimension (V) must not be less than
500mm and not more than 900mm.
Dimension (W) must not be greater than
380mm.
Note: If (W) is greater than 205mm then (V) must not be less than 660mm.

Motor cycles manufactured after 30 June 1988 (Figure LL6):
The distance between the extreme ends of the handlebar (X) must not be less than 500mm and
not more than 900mm.
The height of the lowest part of the handgrip must not be more than 380mm above the lowest
part of the upper surface of the rider’s seat (Y).
The horizontal distance between the mid-point of the steering yoke bearing and a point
vertically above the centre of the front wheel must not exceed 550mm.
Dimension (X) not less than 500mm and
not more than 900mm.
Dimension (Y) not greater than 380mm.
Dimension (Z) not greater 550mm.




2.1.14 Tyres and Rims
Each tyre and rim must be strong enough to support the machine when it is fully loaded.
2.1.15 Noise
Motor cycles manufactured from 1 July 1975 are subject to strict design requirements for noise
emissions. Components affecting noise emissions (especially exhaust systems) must not be
modified and must be maintained in a serviceable condition. Any replacement component must
be as near as practical to the original component specification.

The AVSR sets stationary noise limits for all motor vehicles including motor cycles. The
stationary noise level for a motor cycle or a motor trike, built after February 1985, is 94 dB(A) or
for any other motor cycles or motor trikes, 100 dB(A). Refer to Section LT Test Procedures for
details about the stationary noise test.
Exhaust system should therefore not be replaced or modified if this is likely to increase the
vehicle’s noise output beyond that of the unmodified system when in good condition.
Motor cycles manufactured from 1 July 1988 have all components of the Silencing System
marked with the name or trade name of the manufacturer. Every motor cycle manufactured
after 1 July 1988 carries details of the ADRs 39/… and 83/... stationary noise test in a format
similar to that shown in Figure LL7.

STATIONARY NOISE TEST INFORMATION
Tested at ..................dB(A) at ..................r/min
Silencing System: (manufacturer’s name)
Identification: (silencer trade description)

Figure LL7 Stationary Noise Test Information Decal

Any replacement part of the system must show the trademark or the name of the manufacturer
of the system.


2.1.16 Horn
An efficient horn or other device must be fitted that is capable of warning other road users of
the presence or position of the motor cycle. Horns, sirens or other devices that emit a sound
like a siren, exhaust whistle, compression whistle or repeater horn must not be fitted.
2.1.17 Speedometer
Motor cycles manufactured after 30 June 1988 must have an accurate speedometer calibrated
in km/h.
2.2 FABRICATION
All work must be performed in accordance with recognised engineering standards. Cutting,
heating, welding or bending of components should be avoided by choosing unmodified
production components wherever possible.
2.2.1 Welding, Fasteners and Electroplating
Mandatory requirements and guidance on the above items are contained in Section
LZ Appendices.
 For the use of fasteners refer to Appendix A Fasteners;
 For welding techniques and procedures refer to Appendix C Heating and Welding of
Steering Components; and
 For electroplating refer to Appendix D Electroplating.


3 AUSTRALIAN DESIGN RULES
A modified vehicle must continue to comply with the ADRs to which it was originally
constructed, except as allowed for in the AVSR.
Outlined in Table LL1 below are requirements and/or components of the vehicle that may be
affected by the modifications and that may require re-certification, testing and/or data to show
continuing compliance for the modified vehicle. This is not an exhaustive list and other
modifications may also affect ADR compliance.
Table LL1 Summary of items that if modified, may detrimentally affect
compliance with applicable ADRs
ADRS DETAILS
ADR 7, 7/... Hydraulic Brake Hoses
ADR 28x, 28/... Motor Vehicle Noise
ADR 33x, 33/... Motor cycle Braking Systems
ADR 39x, 39/... Motor cycle Noise
ADR 42/... General Safety Requirements
ADR 57/… Special Provisions for L-group Vehicles
ADR 83/... External Noise
To determine the ADRs that apply to the vehicle in question, refer to the applicability tables in
Section LO. Vehicles manufactured on or after 1 January 1969 and prior to 1 July 1988 need to
comply with the Second Edition ADRs
whilst vehicles manufactured after this date need to
comply with the Third Edition ADRs. Section LO has separate applicability tables for each
edition.
Alternatively, ADR applicability tables for individual vehicle categories may be referenced on the
Department of Infrastructure and Transport RVCS website at the following address and under
the section titled ADR Applicability Tables:

http://rvcs.dotars.gov.au/






4 NON-CERTIFIED MODIFICATIONS
The following modifications may be carried out provided they do not affect compliance with
ADRs and provided they meet the general safety requirements specified in Subsection 2
General Requirements, and in the case of seat conversions, the additional requirements
specified in Subsection 5 Specific Requirement for Seat Conversions.


4.1 OPTIONAL COMPONENTS OFFERED BY THE MANUFACTURER
The following is a list of typical optional components offered by manufacturers of motor cycles.
 Engine;
 Transmission;
 Front and Rear Suspensions;
 Exhaust;
 Fuel tank;



5 SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS FOR SEAT CONVERSIONS
The following are specific requirements that need to be followed for seat conversions.
All work must also comply with the general guidelines contained in sub-section 2 General
Requirements.

5.1 CONVERSION FROM TWO SEATER TO SINGLE SEATER
For a two seater motor cycle to be converted to a single seater, it is necessary to shorten the
seat and remove the pillion foot pegs/mounting brackets. For a motor cycle to be classified as a
single seater, it is necessary for the motor cycle to be fitted with only:
 one seat which has a length less than 500mm; and
 one pair of foot pegs and mountings.

5.1.1 Reduction in Seat Length
Only the upholstered section of the seat needs to be shortened.
The maximum length of the upholstered section of the seat is 500mm.
The shortened seat must have no sharp edges or protrusions.
Any equipment or fittings exposed by the seat modifications must be protected if they are likely
to cause injury to any person.

5.1.2 Removal of Foot Pegs and Mounting Brackets
The foot pegs must be removed.
There must be no sharp edges, damage to the frame, or damage to the trailing arms.
These modifications must not incorporate oxy-cutting or application of heat.

5.2 CONVERSION FROM A SINGLE SEATER TO A TWO SEATER ORIGINAL
When converting a motor cycle (which has been previously modified to a single seater) to a two
seater, it should be restored as close as possible to the original manufacturer's specifications.

5.2.1 Increase in Seat Length
The seat must be returned to original motor cycle manufacturer's specification or equivalent.
The lengthened seat must have no sharp edges or protrusions.
Any equipment or fittings exposed by the seat modifications must be protected if they are likely
to cause injury to any person.

5.2.2 Fitting of Foot Pegs and Mounting Brackets
Pillion passenger foot pegs must be fitted as close to the motor cycle manufacturer's original
position as possible.
The foot pegs are to be mounted in accordance with good automotive practice.
There must be no sharp edges, damage to the frame, or damage to the trailing arms.
These modifications must not incorporate oxy-cutting or application of heat.


6 CERTIFIED MODIFICATIONS (LL CODES)
There are currently no certified modifications in this Section of VSB 14.

Aussiehard
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Re: Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Aussiehard » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:00 pm

In terms of a Motorbike…… My understanding is if the frame has previously been registered in Australia and has a number stamped on the neck along with a compliance plate. As long as those two items are intact it is deemed a modified vehicle.

A modified vehicle must comply with the original year of compliances ADRs. Usually the year of manufacture but not always. I got caught here as my bike is a 1976 according to the manufactures list of numbers, however it is listed as a 1978 according to it's compliance plate. Maybe we got the old superseded models dumped on Aussie showrooms back in the 70's.

If you have a complete new frame then it is deemed and ICV and most comply with the year of COMPLETION and TESTINGS ADRs! So you could get caught out if your build takes too long and ADRs get changed.


There seems to be a lot of misinformation circulating on what is or isn't required what is legal and not so much.

The reasons being are partly due to the information changing over time, being only relevant in certain circumstances and having exemptions. Being open to authorities interpretations, or being written for cars etc and attempting to be applied to bikes. Also the boys in blue only get something like a 3hr training session on this so often can't be expected to know the specifics in depth. They have a lot of law to try and remember.

Best advice when dealing with the police, RWC assessor, or any other relevant body is to know your *#@** better than they do and have printed laminated copies of the rules specific to your build that maybe questioned tucked up in your tool roll. At the first sign of debate rip out said papers and end the debate on the spot and put whoever is questioning the legitimacy of your mods back in their box.

Aussiehard
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:31 pm
Location: Melbourne S.E.
Contact:

Re: Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Aussiehard » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:04 pm

]In terms of a Motorbike…… My understanding is if the frame has previously been registered in Australia and has a number stamped on the neck along with a compliance plate. As long as those two items are intact it is deemed a modified vehicle.

A modified vehicle must comply with the original year of compliances ADRs. Usually the year of manufacture but not always. I got caught here as my bike is a 1976 according to the manufactures list of numbers, however it is listed as a 1978 according to it's compliance plate. Maybe we got the old superseded models dumped on Aussie showrooms back in the 70's.

If you have a complete new frame then it is deemed and ICV and most comply with the year of COMPLETION and TESTINGS ADRs! So you could get caught out if your build takes too long and ADRs get changed.


There seems to be a lot of misinformation circulating on what is or isn't required what is legal and not so much.

The reasons being are partly due to the information changing over time, being only relevant in certain circumstances and having exemptions. Being open to authorities interpretations, or being written for cars etc and attempting to be applied to bikes. Also the boys in blue only get something like a 3hr training session on this so often can't be expected to know the specifics in depth. They have a lot of law to try and remember.

Best advice when dealing with the police, RWC assessor, or any other relevant body is to know your *#@** better than they do and have printed laminated copies of the rules specific to your build that maybe questioned tucked up in your tool roll. At the first sign of debate rip out said papers and end the debate on the spot and put whoever is questioning the legitimacy of your mods back in their box. :idea: This may also give you a level of bluff factor on the few dodgey mods that will fly under the radar as you have proved yourself on the legitimate ones…. :twisted:

Bearcx
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Re: Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Bearcx » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:59 pm

Man, there's a lot of stuff on my build that ' touches the edges' of the rule book. Thanks Aussiehard.
The brave may not live long, but, the cautious do not live at all.

Silent Grey Fellow
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Location: NSW

Re: Some take outs for ICV Bikes

Post by Silent Grey Fellow » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:21 pm

They can stick there rules and regulations where the sun don't shine
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Silent Grey Fellow

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